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Under the Tank Master Cylinder

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:07 pm
by Ken in Oklahoma
Most of my airheads are of the /6 and /7 series, which means that I, like everybody, am going to have problems with leaky master cylinders--and I do! Usually the problem is pitting of the bore, especially around the rear seal. I've had some successes in honing out the cylinder bore, but not always successful in the long run. Currently, as I've mentioned, I'm in the process of putting on some new smoked red body work and the bike is starting to look gorgeous. But back to master cylinders. What I would really like to find is somebody who will bore my old master cylinder and then reline it, preferably with stainless steel. I know it is common in the brit bike world to re-sleeve the carb where the slides moves up and down. A similar fix would seem to be ideal for under the tank master cylinders. Heard of anybody who does that?

Now, my question asked, I'll do a bit of meandering. First of all the BMW overhaul kit for under tank master cylinders is (or at least always was) expensive as hell. I seem to recall that a few years ago the kit was well over $50 and will surely be significantly more now. You get a lot of parts in the kit, but the only ones usually needed are the plunger seal and the seal at the back of the bore.

I am open to buying a handlebar mounted master cylinder, but that introduces certain other problems to be dealt with. For example, Air Bear, put one on his bike and it looks (and apparently) works just fine. But his /6 has the early /5 type switch gear rather than the later switch gear that my bikes have. Plus there are other issues such as devising a splitter between the master cylinder out put to the two ATE 'swinging' calipers. Then there are other issues to be dealt with such as is there two throttle cables exiting the throttle (one for each carb) or is there a single throttle cable coming out and then going to a splitter under the tank to actuate two carbs. (Which latter concept I abhor!) Then, also, depending upon the years involved the throttle cam can be different gearing from the old one, requiring $$$ that I would rather spend on something else.

I seem to remember that Motobins has, or had kits, that you can buy with a lot of money.

(By the way, Duane, I'm purposely choosing to go here first in lieu of the internet for my info. Call me obstreperous!) :roll:

(Incidentally, the bike that's getting the new clothes is the one you see me straddling on my avatar.)

Ken

Re: Under the Tank Master Cylinder

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:22 pm
by jagarra
Ken,'

I recently had my MC relined by an outfit in New York. I will give you the name when I get to my home computer. What size is your M/C I figure you have a 17mm one. The cost to get it relined is $100.00 plus shipping. They use a brass liner rather than stainless. The kits from the dealer run about $60.00.

Now when I was experimenting with MC size and caliper sizes I drilled an tapped a stock 14mm unit for the second caliper hose, turns out it is 1/8 pipe, so the tap is readily available if you decide to go that route.

I ended up with a 16mm under tank unit, with 40mm calipers.
gg

Re: Under the Tank Master Cylinder

Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:40 am
by Ken in Oklahoma
jagarra wrote:Ken,'

I recently had my MC relined by an outfit in New York. I will give you the name when I get to my home computer. What size is your M/C I figure you have a 17mm one. The cost to get it relined is $100.00 plus shipping. They use a brass liner rather than stainless. The kits from the dealer run about $60.00.

Now when I was experimenting with MC size and caliper sizes I drilled an tapped a stock 14mm unit for the second caliper hose, turns out it is 1/8 pipe, so the tap is readily available if you decide to go that route.

I ended up with a 16mm under tank unit, with 40mm calipers.
gg
Wow, I'm glad to hear that somebody does the relining. And I don't see any problem with a brass liner. Since my S bike is stock I do have the 40mm calipers and 17mm master cylinder.

In a few days I'm going to pull off my master cylinder and try honing it out (with a slotted 1/2" wooden dowel in my drill press and using waterproof sandpaper 'lubricated' with soapy water).

As a side note, the under the tank master cylinder seems like one of the worst ideas that BMW ever had. When you pull the tank off of the bike it's rare to see a frame that hasn't been attacked by brake fluid (sometimes causing electrical problems as well as the screwed up paint).

Ken

Re: Under the Tank Master Cylinder

Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:16 am
by jagarra
Ken,

Here is the link to the vendor http://www.applehydraulics.com/motorcycles.htm
Just send your M/C in with all the appropriate contact information, it fits in a flat rate postal box. They take about a week to complete, they will contact you when done for your CC number.

I was lucky to find a 16mm M/C as they were only used on the first year of production of the S model. Gives a slightly better feel on the brakes. As you can see they are very familiar with the BMW units, don't know if they can re-sleeve to 16mm on a 17mm unit, may be worth a call.

Kits are available for the under tank unit in 14mm, 16mm and 17mm.

gg

Re: Under the Tank Master Cylinder

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:34 am
by Ken in Oklahoma
jagarra wrote:Ken,

Here is the link to the vendor http://www.applehydraulics.com/motorcycles.htm
Just send your M/C in with all the appropriate contact information, it fits in a flat rate postal box. They take about a week to complete, they will contact you when done for your CC number.

I was lucky to find a 16mm M/C as they were only used on the first year of production of the S model. Gives a slightly better feel on the brakes. As you can see they are very familiar with the BMW units, don't know if they can re-sleeve to 16mm on a 17mm unit, may be worth a call.

Kits are available for the under tank unit in 14mm, 16mm and 17mm.

gg
Thanks for the lead and the link jagarra. It looks very promising. I will try my honing approach first and a new kit first. But if that doesn't work out well I will bite the bullet and send the master cylinder off. My '77 R100/7 I've converted to dual disks, including the 17mm master cylinder. As I remember it has an ongoing problem with the leaky mastercylinder. Unfortunately it is in Oklahoma and I haven't brought it to Boise yet. Hopefully I'll get that done in a couple months. And then I've got a '76 R75/6 with a bad master cylinder. But I have the parts needed to convert it to dual calipers too.

In the scheme of things, spending something around $200 for a reworked master cylinder would promise a working system for another 30 years.

But the first thing I'm going to do is to hone out the '77 R100S master cylinder and see what I've got.

The local BMW shop here in Boise is about a mile from where I live, which really comes in handy. Of course they have very few airhead parts, but it only takes about a week to get the parts through them. Very convenient, especially compared to the nearest BMW shop to my cabin in Oklahoma at about 200 miles.

Ken

Re: Under the Tank Master Cylinder

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:54 am
by jagarra
Ken,

Here is a link to the hone I used https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0035 ... UTF8&psc=1

worked really well even though it only has 2 stones, but since it is such a small bore, limited possibilities.

When you get to Boise, for mail order I have had great results from A&S cycles in CA.

gg

Re: Under the Tank Master Cylinder

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:03 pm
by Ken in Oklahoma
jagarra wrote:Ken,

Here is a link to the hone I used https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0035 ... UTF8&psc=1

worked really well even though it only has 2 stones, but since it is such a small bore, limited possibilities.

When you get to Boise, for mail order I have had great results from A&S cycles in CA.

gg
Hmmm, I may want to try that jagarra. I've put it in my Amazon shopping cart while I think about it some more. It is purpose built, which seems a good thing, and priced right. It might work better than my waterproof sandpaper in a slotted wooden dowel that I've been using to date. With the wooden dowel I can 'localize' the pressure to where the pit in the bore actually is. (Usually in the bottom of the bore near the rear end of the master cylinder)

Of course I just might not have any pitting when I get into the master cylinder (perhaps tomorrow). I could get lucky and just have to do a bit of 'cleaning' of the bore with some fine sandpaper. And there would then be a chance that I don't need a new kit after all. Could happen. Maybe. If I'm lucky.

Ken

Re: Under the Tank Master Cylinder

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:32 am
by jagarra
Mine had pitting, down there where the transition was between the smooth portion of the M/C and spring area. I thought I could get away with just a hone job. Turned out it would not hold pressure when I tried to bleed it. Ruined a set of seals in the process, so I had to sleeve and buy new seals. The extra cost of gaining experience.

good luck